tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19623437.post3389371444924158982..comments2023-09-23T12:13:10.019+00:00Comments on December Quinn, Erotic Romance<br>Stacia Kane, Sexy Urban Fantasy: More on UF as a genreStaciahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07969399927758009095noreply@blogger.comBlogger9125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19623437.post-47729278140753963632009-04-01T00:03:00.000+00:002009-04-01T00:03:00.000+00:00I agree with Kirsten. If I'm hooked by the story l...I agree with Kirsten. If I'm hooked by the story line, I doubt much of anything will dissuade me from reading the novel.BernardLhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09722619048888613647noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19623437.post-36162844260141653252009-03-31T14:57:00.000+00:002009-03-31T14:57:00.000+00:00Hey, I love it when you guys have discussions in c...Hey, I love it when you guys have discussions in comments, don't apologize!Staciahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07969399927758009095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19623437.post-20337801992144803732009-03-31T03:08:00.001+00:002009-03-31T03:08:00.001+00:00Sorry to hijack your comments, D!Sorry to hijack your comments, D!kirsten saellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02778076783406073225noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19623437.post-81549956191307468762009-03-31T03:08:00.000+00:002009-03-31T03:08:00.000+00:00I'm going to have to give your examples a try, Ang...I'm going to have to give your examples a try, Angie. I'm sort of at an impasse trying to figure out what the differences are between a heroine and a female hero (as pertains to romance). I can feel the difference when I read it, but it's so subtle and hard to put into words.<BR/><BR/>Part of it, I think, is that the reader only has to relate to the heroine, but she has to fall for the hero. And because most romance readers are straight women, the heroine has to be likeable from the beginning, while the hero can often be a super-hot, darkly brooding jerk-face and still be desirable because of his sex appeal. <BR/><BR/>Maybe I'm having a hard time explaining this because I'm coming at it from a bisexual POV. Being attracted to both men and women leads to me ending up annoyed a lot of the time, because I would find a super-hot, darkly brooding female rake just as appealing as the quintessential male version. I don't need her to be likeable from the beginning--I want her to not just accomplish stuff and overcome obstacles, but to change and grow and improve as a person (and not just in her discovery that OMG, I like teh hot sexx0ring!!1!). <BR/><BR/>And sadly, the problem is there in a lot of f/f romance I've read in ebooks--only worse. You end up with a novel that has two heroines instead of heroine you can relate to and a hero you can fall in love with. I just end up not caring, and that's sad because I loves me some hot girl-on-girl action.kirsten saellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02778076783406073225noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19623437.post-9086262344090037692009-03-31T01:25:00.000+00:002009-03-31T01:25:00.000+00:00So if the FP is what you might call the "hero" of ...<I>So if the FP is what you might call the "hero" of the story, it's probably UF. If she's the catalyst for the hero's journey, romance.</I><BR/><BR/>Humm. Maybe we're just reading different romances, but most of the ones I read have the girl as the actual protagonist, the one who wants something and takes action to overcome obstacles in order to get it. The guy might have his thing going too, but the focus tends to be either on both of them about equally, or on the girl. There are exceptions of course, and some of them are excellent (I love Kinsale, for example, but agree that her guys tend to be the focus of the story) but that's the trend I tend to notice.<BR/><BR/>Examples: Jo Beverley's <I>My Lady Notorious,</I> where Chastity has a problem she needs to solve (being poor, with an undeservedly bad reputation, and tied to a pair of selfish and brutal brothers) and Cyn is just sort of bumming around looking for something to do and decides to help her out. The "quest" is hers and he's the one who bends his actions to support her in getting what she wants.<BR/><BR/>Or Laura Kinsale's <I>Midsummer Moon,</I> where Merlin's goal is getting her flying machine finished and working. Ransom is looking for some rumored wonderful invention that'd help the government in the war, but he thinks it's the speaking box, and his fear of heights makes him fight against the whole concept of the flying machine from day one. He's the one who has to change his thinking, Merlin's the one who gets what she wants without having to compromise, while he acts as helper and bodyguard.<BR/><BR/>I don't actually mind wussified heroines if their personality is used properly. In Laura London's <I>The Windflower,</I> for example, Merry is a total wuss in that if you yell at her she just dissolves. She doesn't seem like at all the sort of character who'd benefit from being kidnapped by pirates. But the writers <I>use</I> that instead of trying to convince the reader that she's this tower of strength, and the book is awesome.<BR/><BR/>What really annoys me is when the writer is trying to present the female protag as being all strong and kick-ass, but is failing miserably at it. For example, in Linnea Sinclair's <I>Gabriel's Ghost,</I> we're supposed to believe that Chasidah is this strong, kick-butt military type. She starts out on a prison planet and has managed to smuggle a knife in, which is cool. So she's stalking through the darkness with her knife and a plan to escape from the planet, but a sudden noise out of the dark bushes nearby startles her and she immediately drops her knife. [facepalm] Umm, right. I'm sure impressed -- I can see she's ready for a promotion to the special forces any time now. Not. But of course, if the writer hadn't tried to convince me she was all bad and tough, I might've liked her. If she'd been a normal person doing her best under sucky circumstances, then dropping the knife is something a normal person might do when startled. Someone with military training? Not so much.<BR/><BR/>AngieAngiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11920578701763415331noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19623437.post-19082569606353361952009-03-31T00:25:00.000+00:002009-03-31T00:25:00.000+00:00I do tend to agree with Kirsten at the gut level t...<I>I do tend to agree with Kirsten at the gut level that if the female protag is more wussified (to be more blunt about it) then I'm more likely to think of the book as a paranormal romance than an urban fantasy. </I><BR/><BR/>Actually, I'm more referring to the female protagonist's status within the story, rather than whether she's kick-ass or not. I would say the FP in a chick-lit novel is more a female hero than a heroine, because the book is about her journey--even if she starts out a total mess and a wuss. In romances, the female protag often acts more as supporting cast, or a catalyst to help the hero on his journey, as they simultaneously fall in love. (Laura Kinsale's <I>The Shadow and the Star,</I> or our D's <I>Black Dragon</I>)<BR/><BR/>So if the FP is what you might call the "hero" of the story, it's probably UF. If she's the catalyst for the hero's journey, romance.<BR/><BR/>If the hero is male, and the FP is a heroine, it's probably romance. If she's a "love interest", it's more likely to be UF.<BR/><BR/>This makes me wonder if anytime the woman is the hero, that by default makes it "not a romance". <BR/><BR/>Can you tell I'm trying to write an article about this crap? I'm completely stymied.kirsten saellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02778076783406073225noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19623437.post-70201563599267807722009-03-30T22:51:00.000+00:002009-03-30T22:51:00.000+00:00First, best of luck with the move. I hope you end...First, best of luck with the move. I hope you end up at the other end with all your china intact and all your lampshades present and accounted for. :)<BR/><BR/>About definitions, a romance is defined by its plot, specifically, two or more people overcoming obstacles to form a stable romantic relationship. There you go, that's it. If there's no stable romantic relationship at the end, then it's not a romance no matter where in the bookstore it's shelved or what's printed on the spine.<BR/><BR/>An urban fantasy is defined by its setting, specifically, a modern, generally city-type setting with magical elements present and forming an integral part of the plotline.<BR/><BR/>Since one is defined by its plot and the other by its setting, you can blend the two quite smoothly (although this is more difficult to do in practice) and at that point it's up to the writer or publisher to decide how to aim the marketing. There are books which could legitimately be marketed as either paranormal romance or urban fantasy, and either label would fit as well as the other.<BR/><BR/>I do tend to agree with Kirsten at the gut level that if the female protag is more wussified (to be more blunt about it) then I'm more likely to think of the book as a paranormal romance than an urban fantasy. That's just my own prejudice, though, and I don't count it as part of my official definitions. [wry smile]<BR/><BR/>AngieAngiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11920578701763415331noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19623437.post-28410839827034463402009-03-30T15:27:00.000+00:002009-03-30T15:27:00.000+00:00For me, it's about what the story is mostly, well,...For me, it's about what the story is mostly, well, <I>about.</I> If you write a blurb, and it looks like the UG or PD blurb--that is, mostly an action/fantasy plot with maybe a minor mention of romance--then it's Urban Fantasy or Fantasy with romantic elements.<BR/><BR/>I've been thinking a lot about this kind of stuff, because I've been wondering (I did a thread on it at Divas) about romance and female heroes and whether the two are mutually exclusive. I do feel that my Crossing Swords was a Fantasy Romance--but Lianon, in my mind, is definitely a female hero, rather than a heroine. But you just don't find them so much in romance. So maybe one way to differentiate between romance and UF is to ask "Is the female protagonist a hero, or a heroine?"kirsten saellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02778076783406073225noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19623437.post-44153478697778902942009-03-30T14:02:00.000+00:002009-03-30T14:02:00.000+00:00I've wondered a time or two where the UF, Paranorm...I've wondered a time or two where the UF, Paranormal romance line was. I'd probably read some UF but I doubt I'd enjoy the other. This helped clarify some stuff for me.<BR/><BR/>Hope the move goes well.Charles Gramlichhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02052592247572253641noreply@blogger.com